250r 04 damper piston rod leaking?
  • BLYFACTOR
    Posts: 4
    Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:46 am

    250r 04 damper piston rod leaking?

    by BLYFACTOR » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:16 am

    Hi, I'm new here and I need some assistance with showa OEM forks. I was changing the fork seals and then when I went to bleed the piston rod and it accumulated oil draining from inside the dampening rod. Is that normal? Also it was kinda stiff bleeding it as well. Not sure what to do. Thur manual says to replace the entire damper
  • User avatar
    JimDirt
    Posts: 3523
    Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:31 pm

    Re: 250r 04 damper piston rod leaking?

    by JimDirt » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:27 am

    Welcome to the site !! \:D/

    OK , let me get this straight ..... You were replacing fork seals , and when you tilted the cartridge oil came out the 2 holes on the side near the top ??? , or , you disassembled the cartridge , then refilled it and was bleeding it , and oil was running down the rebound rod ????..... or you were bleeding the cartridge and oil was continually coming out the 2 holes and the cartridge would not hold the rod all the way out and it kept sucking back in ???????

    If the cartridge has pressure and the rod is forced all the way out , that is normal and how it is supposed to work ...

    The oil will accumulate where the 2 holes are when you first remove the Fork Cap Assembly from the cartridge , due to the nature of the design , and when you tilt it to the side it will drain out the holes , that is normal , you also might get a slight amount after filling and forcing the Fork Cap Assembly into the cartridge , in which you just tilt it and let it drain out before inserting the cartridge back into the main fork tubes

    You want the Rebound rod to keep trying to extend fully every time you stroke the cartridge , this is how it is supposed to work , and if it does not , that indicates a seal is leaking

    If you are bleeding the cartridge and oil is continually seeping down the Rebound rod , that would indicate the outer seal that seals the Rebound rod with the cartridge is leaking and needs replaced , as well as the Rebound rod would start extending less and less with each stroke

    If you were bleeding the cartridge and oil was coming out of the 2 holes on the side of the cartridge at the top by the fork cap assembly , and the Rebound rod keeps sucking in farther and farther each time you try to pump it , then the Free Piston Seal is leaking and possibly the O-Rings that seal the Fork Cap Assembly (where the valving is) is leaking

    If it is either or both of the above mentioned cases , then you can replace the seals (Race Tech and other suspension companies
    like Suspension Direct , Pro Circuit , Factory Connection , etc. etc.) , and do not need to replace the entire expensive cartridge assembly , all those companies have the parts/seals you would need and I can walk you thru replacement procedure , you will not need much more tools than you do for changing fork seals , with the exception of a large allen socket if it is the main cartridge seal and a propane or butane torch , some blue Loctite , and/or a shaved down 13mm open end wrench and/or a pair of thin pointed vice grips to clamp the Base Valve while unscrewing the needle cap with the fork cap wrench , or I can show you how to make a special wrench using a old box end wrench and a shear pin (which is the best method of holding the base valve , and saves you from buying expensive tools , this is the DIY tool kit)

    (This is the special DIY wrench to hold the base valve , so you can replace the Free Piston Seal , and below that is the vice grip alternative)
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    You grind/file the rounded out hole to help it conform , so it holds the base valve easier
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    You only need these (or one of them) if it is the Free Piston Seal leaking , if it is the main cartridge seal , then you need the 17mm Allen socket and the Propane/Butane torch
    02 CRF450R
    06 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • BLYFACTOR
    Posts: 4
    Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:46 am

    Re: 250r 04 damper piston rod leaking?

    by BLYFACTOR » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:53 am

    If you are bleeding the cartridge and oil is seeping down the Rebound rod , that would indicate the outer seal that seals the Rebound rod with the cartridge is leaking and needs replaced
    This.
    The oil is coming out. Sometimes dripping. I tried bleeding it real slow. Checked the oil level to make 42mm to 47mm. Then put the fork cap assembly on. Then went 4 inch bursts. I was holding it sideways like you mentioned and oil just kept coming out while I was getting the "air" out.Then drained it off..

    How do you know when you have successfully bleed your forks.

    Also my damper assembly is 6 point socket.
    You say that I can replace this somehow? Pivot works is the kit I used.
    They gave me a super tiny o ring that I have no idea what to do with.

    Thanks.
  • BLYFACTOR
    Posts: 4
    Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:46 am

    Re: 250r 04 damper piston rod leaking?

    by BLYFACTOR » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:16 pm

    Here's what I have.
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  • User avatar
    JimDirt
    Posts: 3523
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    Re: 250r 04 damper piston rod leaking?

    by JimDirt » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:12 pm

    OK , what you do is remove the locknut on the rebound rod , and push the rebound rod up thru the cartridge , it is removed from the inside , you do not touch the screw on the inside you are showing in the pic..... that holds the rebound stack/valving you don't need to mess with it .....

    The kit you have will not include the seal you need , you will need to buy it from one of the suspension companies I mentioned , I personally use Race Tech you want seal # FSTC-CS1217 ,12.0x17x3 Blu TC ....the seal is about $10.00 I would recommend replacing both sides since you have everything apart , that is up to you ... ..... So after you get the seal/s , you remove the rod and you will hold the cartridge upside down , you will see a large Allen fitting where the rod went thru .... this is where the seal you need to replace is .... you will need to clamp the cartridge upside down in a vice , either with soft jaws , or a rag wrapped around it to keep from damaging it .....

    You will now see 4 small indents in the side about a inch down from the end , these need to be drilled out carefully , using a bit the same size as the hole , be careful as to not drill thru as it will screw up the threads and make removal difficult as well as compromise the cartridge threads when unscrewing , you just need to drill till the bit breaks free (you will feel it bottom out , stop there)

    It will look like this , see the holes in the tube ?? , they are peen dents , holding the seal end in place , you need to clear the peen by drilling the tip of the dent out so you can unscrew the assembly ..
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    You need to use a (will most likely need to buy one) 17mm Allen socket and a half inch breaker bar , or long ratchet along with a torch to heat up the Loctite holding the seal in .... you unscrew the seal (it will be real tight at first) , then remove it (careful it will be hot) then remove the seal , taking note as to the orientation of the seal , put in the new seal , clean off the threads of the nut with Brake Cleaner , and wipe it down and blow it dry with air ..... then use the blue loctite and screw it back on till it is flush

    This is the socket , I got mine at Harbor Freight (17mm)
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    (this pic shows Red Loctite , but I use blue so it can be taken apart another time easier)
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    Then take the Rebound rod , and cover the threads in Teflon Tape (that white tape you use for plumbing pipe threads and to keep your clutch and brake perch able to move freely on your bars in the event of a crash
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    Wrap enough of it on the threads and over the tip of the rod that you can rub your finger on the threads and not feel the sharpness of them (the rod threads are extremely sharp and will cut the new seal if you do not wrap them , if you run your finger on them before using the tape you will see what I mean)

    Put some fork oil or grease on the threads and tip of the rod , then insert the Rebound rod back into the cartridge carefully , you might need to use a long screwdriver (phillips) or a long punch to push the rod down in so it comes out thru the seal , pull the rod down , reinstall the locknut , then put the cartridge back in the vice right side up and fill the cartridge as you did before and bleed the Rebound rod ..... What I do is fill the cartridge with about 6.4 oz. of fork oil , then bleed the rebound rod by slowly pushing it up into the cartridge , then pulling it back out till it is extended all the way , repeat this using a bit more force each time till you are giving it a strong pull , but still slow so you don't blow all the oil back out when you pull on the rod , as you do it you will get the feel for it , if oil is squirting up out of the tube you are pulling too hard and too fast , then use your flashlight to look down in the cartridge and look for bubbles , if you see ANY then keep bleeding , you want to pull fast enough and with enough force to open the valving to allow the oil to bypass , this is how it is bled is to get the oil from underneath , back into the main chamber , then pour some oil on the O-Rings of the Fork Cap Assembly , then slowly insert the Fork Cap Assembly into the cartridge rocking it side to side as you go , it will take some force , but it will go down to the threads , then use the fork cap wrench and push down while tightening , it should begin to thread in , snug it down by hand with the wrench , you do not need to torque it , and then push in on the rod and you should have pressure and the rod should be extended fully and when you push it in it should return to full extension , if it does not , then you need to pull out the Fork Cap Assembly again and rebleed the rod until all the fine bubbles are completely gone , and you should be good ;)
    02 CRF450R
    06 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • Back2-2
    Posts: 839
    Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:31 pm

    Re: 250r 04 damper piston rod leaking?

    by Back2-2 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:20 pm

    Big Thumbs Up to Jim. =DD 8) Now that is customer service!
    Neil
    Black Hills of SD
    Life without Motorcycles would just be boring, really boring
  • BLYFACTOR
    Posts: 4
    Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:46 am

    Re: 250r 04 damper piston rod leaking?

    by BLYFACTOR » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:06 pm

    Thanks for this great information. Truly wonderful
    Really puzzled me that honda says I should've replaced all that and basically us to spend our hard earned dollars on full on reaplcements :lol: :lol:
    I used that part number to look up a video as well.
    And while watching that video on taking it apart he also replaced the Seal inside the fork cap assembly.
    Should I probably do that as well? What part number would that be?

    So I will get the racetech one for the damper assembly and that 17mm alan socket.
    Also will have to order more oil unless I can just reuse what I dump out because its not like it was on the bike right? Ha

    So part number FSTC CS1217 for inside the rod
    and FSTC RS102006 for the Fork cap assembly.?
    https://www.racetech.com/ProductSearch/ ... F250R/2004
    (The video I watched)
    https://youtu.be/aFvlTpttFbA
  • User avatar
    JimDirt
    Posts: 3523
    Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:31 pm

    Re: 250r 04 damper piston rod leaking?

    by JimDirt » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:47 pm

    Yea , Honda is like that ... well actually most manufacturers are like that , some parts they wont separate , because for all "normal" purposes , the "average" rider does not know how to do this kind of work , so instead of having people get in over their head , they just sell them the complete unit , and it basically becomes a "bolt on" part , that way it makes it easier on Honda and the owner , even most Honda dealers do not do this work , it is pretty much left to the suspension shops , and guys like us that take the time to learn this stuff on our own ....... That is how I got into suspension , I was usually a mechanic and always worked on my own stuff , but when it came to suspension , it was a big secret .... after asking and asking and not getting anywhere , I started finding forums with some info , and just figured out the rest , and here we are ... I am far from a expert , but I know enough to get by and do revalves and simple stuff like we are doing here .... its really not that hard , it just takes some specialty tools , and someone willing to take the time and figure things out

    Now back to your questions ..... Yes those are the correct seals .... If you search around in the suspension forum here , you will find posts where I have walked guys thru the Free Piston Seal change ... its not hard once you do it , it is just a bit intimidating for someone who looks at it and sees all those parts .... there are critical things you need to do exactly , but for the most part , once you get thru it , you wont question doing it the next time ... if you can't find them , I will post up a walk thru like the above one ....

    And yes , a new bottle of oil would be best , 1 bottle should do both forks , but I always buy 2 just in case you have to rebleed or dump the oil for some reason , once I dump it , I never put old oil back in , it just contaminates everything with metal shavings from the bushing wearing , as I am sure you noted taking it apart the oil was most likely silver/gray , that just wears on parts , so fresh is best ... ......and yes Race Tech has good videos , and they have great customer service , I get most of my parts from them , though I also go thru Suspension Direct , and Factory Connection once in a while . but any part you may need Race Tech usually has , as well as the tools ....

    When I set up my work area , I ended up using a kitchen trash can from Wal-Mart , I cut a hole in my benchtop , and set it in it , and installed a shower drain in the bottom , I put a paint roller wipe screen in the bottom to keep the forks off the bottom so they would drain better , then put a 5 gallon paint bucket for it to drain into , I use it for oil changes as well , just dump the oil in it and let the pan drain out , and good to go , I bought a suspension vice and mounted it to a 2x4 , and bought a rack for holding garden tools from Home Depot and put that on the bench shelf to hold the fork parts when they drain into the kitchen trash can , that way everything is contained and I don't make a mess on the floor like I used to using a regular bench vice

    This is my setup , it works well if you are doing your own stuff , the nitrogen bottle is for recharging shocks.... I do my own stuff and for a bike shop I used to work at and for friends I ride with:
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    02 CRF450R
    06 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho

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