CRF450X Starting Issues
  • OneWound
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    CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:01 pm

    Hi All,

    I have an issue w/ an '05 CRF450X that is plated. I was riding gravel roads (had ridden approx 300 miles before hand) and it decided to die on me while cruising. I brought it home and have done the following so far (not necessarily in order):

    1) Get spark w/ the spark plug.
    2) Dumped a can of sea foam in it, let it sit a day, tried to start.
    3) Removed carb and cleaned it. Saw no real evidence of dirt/gunk inside of carb. Also blew through all passage ways I could find and had no debris come out.
    4) Checked that I am getting fuel from the tank to the carb.

    My gut says it should be something electrical.

    One thing I have noted (I don't believe its related, but I'd rather say it just in case) is that sometimes my bike would die if I was coming to a stop while in 1st gear. I attributed this to a too rich/too lean condition (main was at 170, and I replaced it with a 165 main jet). Once this was done, I had ridden approx 350 miles and did not receive the same issue again.

    Help!
  • User avatar
    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:50 pm

    So your saying you ARE getting spark to the plug correct ?? , also , is the plug wet with fuel ?? , has the bike run since then ?? , or does it run fine , then do this , then die , then run fine again ?? , how does the bike start ?? , is it a bear to start when the engine is either warm or cold ??

    Have you checked the valves ??

    Do you have a Service or Owners Manual ?? , as it has electrical troubleshooting tests you can perform .. :-k 8-[
    2020 CRF450R
    02 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
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    Weiser , Idaho
  • Aussiecrf230
    Posts: 1751
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by Aussiecrf230 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:27 pm

    You dumped seafoam in the tank. Are you thinking your fuel is old or contaminated in some way?

    Was the spark you got at the plug strong or weak?
    Ray
    Australia

    CRF230F 2004
    C30F Power Up needle
    Mains 132
    Idle 45
    2 turns out
    Baffle out, Screens In

    It starts,it runs,it gets to where all CRFs can get to without the valve or valve plate dramas
  • OneWound
    Posts: 28
    Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:09 pm

    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:46 pm

    I am getting spark at the engine. The spark is blue; from what I read on the internet for 5 minutes this indicates that it is strong. Not sure if this is worth noting, but I accidentally pulled the wire that goes to the spark plug out. After re-inserting it, the spark I was getting was still blue.

    Seafoam was added as a first step in hopes that it would clear our anything in the carb/verify there are no contaminates in the fuel before learning to remove a carb on a CRF.

    The bike has not run since. When trying to start it with the electric start, it sounds like it kicks the cylinder over than sometimes it will spin out. I've also tried kick starting it a few times to no avail.

    WRT to gas getting to the spark plug.. not sure how to check it. Do I try to start it til the battery dies and then remove the spark plug and check to see if the diode is pure white? Currently, its golden brown.

    EDIT: I do have a service manual/owners manual. I honestly only use them when I have to tear apart something.. I've always ran with the assumption that the service manual typically doesn't have the answer I need.
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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:43 pm

    OK , try these steps and see what you get

    First , drain ALL the gas and put in FRESH Premium (no more Sea Foam), make sure to drain the bowl of the carb as well

    Before putting the tank back on , remove the plug and take a small vacuum hose or similar size , that is smaller than the spark plug threads , and dip it into some gas at least 2" into it , then place your thumb over the opening at the top , hold your finger over it , and place the hose in the spark plug hole , release your thumb , then pull the hose out and replace the plug , what you have now done is put in about a tablespoon of gas directly into the cylinder , this should be enough fuel to actually start the bike for a few seconds (as soon as you can get the plug installed (**and tightened** so the gas does not evaporate) , install the plug wire , then either with the button , or the kick start , try starting the bike and reply with the results , hopefully it fires , if it does then you are having a fuel starvation issue and need to concentrate on that with your efforts

    This will give us a idea what is actually going on and eliminate or identify the fuel system as the issue

    And the Manual is your friend , it will tell you EVERYTHING you need to know about your bike , **depending on if its a Factory Honda Service Manual(different and more detailed than the Owners Manual) or Owners Manual , will define the details of what it tells you , but it will cover everything you need to know to get or keep it running and maintained and rebuilt**
    2020 CRF450R
    02 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • Leardriver
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by Leardriver » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:20 am

    If you were cruising down the road and it just quit, the carb wouldn't be on my list of suspects. A 165 main jet is fine, but that is for wide open throttle anyway, not part throttle cruising, and it's not nearly rich enough to foul a plug.

    Like the others have suggested, put some fresh gas and a new plug in, and see if it will start. Make sure that the fuel screw, washer, spring and O ring on the bottom of the carb haven't vibrated out. I've seen that many times, and it will do just what you described.
  • Back2-2
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by Back2-2 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:21 am

    Have you verified that you are getting fuel to the carb?
    Neil
    Black Hills of SD
    Life without Motorcycles would just be boring, really boring
  • OneWound
    Posts: 28
    Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:09 pm

    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:59 pm

    So I poured premium (91 octane) fuel, a little more than a tablespoon (used a measuring device) and it still wouldn't fire. This was not with a new plug (as I didn't have one handy) but I have attached pictures of my current plug. It's a NGK TR51X.
    Here is the image of the spark plug https://i.imgur.com/xsdBAWT.jpg

    Back, yes I have verified I'm getting fuel to the carb.
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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:44 pm

    Where did you get that plug ??? (who told you it was for your bike ??) , the plug for your bike is supposed to be *only* NGK IFR8H11 or a ND (Nippon Denso) VK24PRZ11 , I referenced that NGK TR51X. plug on NGKs site , for a 450X , and it does not show it at all , not as a alternative , not at all for a CRF450X , the only reference i can find is in automotive and marine applications , these bikes have hi performance engines and require special plugs , from what i gathered the plug you have sells for about $7.00 , the plug made specifically and recommended for our bikes (450R and X take the same plug) is about $16.95 *retail*

    I am thinking that plug is part , actually a lot of your issues , looking at the picture it looks like it has been detonating , and is about ready to start welding itself to oblivion (it actually looks like a Stick Welders stick with tons of slag on it) change that plug to the correct one , and try starting again .... :shock: , I can run the NGK IFR8H11 for a year or more and not have it look like that , in fact the plug in my 450X has been in there for over 3 years , , I pull it out to inspect it from time to time and it does not look even close to that kind of slag/soot/detonation and my X can sit for a year and fire right up with about 6 pumps to the throttle and full choke and hit the button ... I think that plug is complicating any issue you are having and is possibly the main cause
    2020 CRF450R
    02 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • OneWound
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    Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:09 pm

    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:08 pm

    Where did you get that plug ??? (who told you it was for your bike ??) , the plug for your bike is supposed to be *only* NGK IFR8H11 or a ND (Nippon Denso) VK24PRZ11 , I referenced that NGK TR51X. plug on NGKs site , for a 450X , and it does not show it at all , not as a alternative , not at all for a CRF450X , the only reference i can find is in automotive and marine applications , these bikes have hi performance engines and require special plugs , from what i gathered the plug you have sells for about $7.00 , the plug made specifically and recommended for our bikes (450R and X take the same plug) is about $16.95 *retail*

    I am thinking that plug is part , actually a lot of your issues , looking at the picture it looks like it has been detonating , and is about ready to start welding itself to oblivion (it actually looks like a Stick Welders stick with tons of slag on it) change that plug to the correct one , and try starting again .... :shock: , I can run the NGK IFR8H11 for a year or more and not have it look like that , in fact the plug in my 450X has been in there for over 3 years , , I pull it out to inspect it from time to time and it does not look even close to that kind of slag/soot/detonation and my X can sit for a year and fire right up with about 6 pumps to the throttle and full choke and hit the button ... I think that plug is complicating any issue you are having and is possibly the main cause
    So that is the plug that came out of the bike. Naturally, since it came out of the bike, I assumed it was for the bike. Whoops! I got another plug on order (IFR8H11), so hopefully it will be in within a few days. I'm shocked it took this long to fail (assuming this is a spark plug issue), cause its seen over 700+ miles of travel so far.

    I'm still lost on something - this plug still produced a blue spark (which from my understanding is good). Since it sparked.. what could have been off about this plug to cause it to fail? Besides the obvious signs of erosion I missed?
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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:18 am

    The heat range for one , I have no clue as to the heat range of that plug compared to the "correct" plug so that worries me , the color is also bothering to me (not related to the plug itself , but a indicator of possibly something else) , it looks to have rust on it , which could indicate a blown head gasket or water in the gas , the electrode tip to me looks to be larger than what the "correct" plug would be (it does not seem as fine a tip from what it looks like in the picture , which is not as efficient as the fine tipped plug made for a high performance engine such as in the bike)

    Here is a old plug i had laying around for the bike (the correct plug) , note how fine the tip looks compared to the one in your picture (not a major difference , but a difference , this tip helps with burning efficiency , Also note the color of the plug , its more brown/tan than red oxide color of yours , indicating moisture , and note that the porcelain also sticks out farther on yours indicating a heat range difference) **I tried to take the picture the same as yours for a fair comparison**
    Image
    Your Picture
    Image

    I am not saying the plug is the entire issue , it is part of the issue .... You still have not mentioned if you checked the valves and what the gap was , that also is a concern for your symptoms , is the valves may be zeroing out
    2020 CRF450R
    02 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • Aussiecrf230
    Posts: 1751
    Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:11 pm

    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by Aussiecrf230 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:30 pm

    Jim,
    I assume from the pictures that the standard plug uses a flat face and sealing washer.
    It appears the other plug is conical seating type. Not sure what that would mean to length of plug into the cylinder.

    Hi OneWound,
    Can we get a photo of the plug hole to check what the bike is machined to have.

    Also get a bright torch and look at top of piston through plug hole.
    If the plug is too higher a heat range it can pit the top of the piston.

    Even if wrong plug it can still fire with a bright blue spark outside of the engine.
    It is only and indication it is 'working', what goes on inside an engine is an entirely different scenario. It is one thing to eliminate as an issue, first.
    Ray
    Australia

    CRF230F 2004
    C30F Power Up needle
    Mains 132
    Idle 45
    2 turns out
    Baffle out, Screens In

    It starts,it runs,it gets to where all CRFs can get to without the valve or valve plate dramas
  • User avatar
    JimDirt
    Posts: 3859
    Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:31 pm

    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:14 pm

    Jim,
    I assume from the pictures that the standard plug uses a flat face and sealing washer.
    It appears the other plug is conical seating type. Not sure what that would mean to length of plug into the cylinder.

    Hi OneWound,
    Can we get a photo of the plug hole to check what the bike is machined to have.

    Also get a bright torch and look at top of piston through plug hole.
    If the plug is too higher a heat range it can pit the top of the piston.

    Even if wrong plug it can still fire with a bright blue spark outside of the engine.
    It is only and indication it is 'working', what goes on inside an engine is an entirely different scenario. It is one thing to eliminate as an issue, first.
    Correct Ray , that plug is not meant for this bike as i mentioned , (i did not even notice the washer was missing... oops) and that is what bothers me , the parts of it I pointed out bother me enough and lead me to believe the plug is a big factor in his issue , and also the hole is made for the washered plug , hopefully it did not damage the sealing surface , though it "should" be ok but , i cant see how the plug completely sealed , which could be part of the detonation look of the plug , if it did not seal as that would cause a lean condition along with a compression issue , along with what looks to me like water has been in the combustion chamber due to the orange coating i see on the electrode :?
    Last edited by JimDirt on Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    2020 CRF450R
    02 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • Leardriver
    Posts: 422
    Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 10:33 am

    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by Leardriver » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:33 pm

    MTBE can put some orange frosting on the tip also, but I'd like to see a stock plug and fresh gas, and figure out what is really wrong.
  • OneWound
    Posts: 28
    Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:09 pm

    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:37 pm

    Putting in the new plug did not allow it to start (using only 1 TBSP of fuel into the spark plug). I would have gone farther - but the battery decided it needed to charge. My plan is tomorrow to put on a tank and try it again. If this doesn't work - I shall check the valves (I haven't done it up to this point as it was easier for me to do other things first, and I like to check simple stuff first).

    Here is the picture of the spark plug bore. I didn't see any obvious signs of pitting.

    Jim,

    I don't see any signs of orange discoloration on the plug. The best I can describe it as is a dirtish brown/black. Maybe the picture causes discoloration issues?

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