Hard to start after new too end, but great once running??
  • Tobybruss
    Posts:3
    Joined:Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:58 pm
    Hard to start after new too end, but great once running??

    by Tobybruss » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:05 am

    My son?s 2011 CRF250R had come up to 50hrs on the top end and a leak down test revealed there was a slight passing of the intake valves and piston rings. The bike was also getting harder to start when hot.

    A new wiseco 13.2 comp piston went in along with a kibblewhite steel intake valve kit (valves, springs, retainers etc). We did all the work but had the new intake valves cut into the heads and assembled by a Honda dealer.

    I cleaned the exhaust valves and leak checked them after reinstallation but I never leak checked the intake valves which the shop did. The head was reinstalled with new gaskets. I put marks on the cam chain as well as the factory timing marks and everything went back together the way it came off. While the throttle body was off the head we also cleaned it with some throttle body cleaner.

    First attempt to start was an absolute prick. It coughed and spluttered and would fire for a few seconds then stall. I pulled the valve cover off and checked the cam timing (again) but it was correct. Got it going eventually and played with the idle speed but it didn?t seem to make a lot of difference. I checked the intake system for vacuum leaks but couldn?t find any. When my son rode it he said he could notice a definite increase in power etc so when the engine is running its seems very healthy like it should but starting it hot or cold is very hard. He usually resorts to roll starting it which gets it going very easily.

    I threw a new spark plug in just in case but it made no difference.

    I plan on doing another leak down test and re-checking the cam timing. Is there anything else I?ve missed. After spending all this money on it I would?ve thought the bike would be very reliable for a while. I would appreciate your feedback.

    Update:
    I think the issue may be timing. The cam timing seems fine but it could be spark. Perhaps the gaskets I used were thinner/fatter than the previous ones and the timing has changed slightly. I cannot find too much info on ignition timing other than the line on the case should line up with or be in between the two timing marks on the flywheel. Mine is slightly to the right of the second timing mark. Do you think this is enough to effect spark and mark it hard to start?
    thanks
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    JimDirt
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    by JimDirt » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:32 pm

    Welcome to the site !! \:D/


    There are several marks that have to line up

    1st is the 2 marks on the cam sprocket they would be like this - - , level with the head and level with a arrow on the head behind the sprocket

    Next would be the mark in the Ignition cover as you are showing in your picture

    Next would be on the clutch side behind the large round plug (10mm Allen Wrench)and the cam lobe should be facing (while looking at it from the left side of the engine) at the 2 O'clock position (pointing towards the rear of the engine)

    If all those are not aligned, then (since you did not mention anywhere in your post that you replaced the timing chain) , i would guess it to be a worn timing chain and/or guide allowing the chain to have slack in it , and you may be 1 tooth off in timing (do not change the timing 1 tooth and try to start it , unless you are certain it is out of time)

    Although , it being in time and slightly off from a worn chain would not cause starting issues as bad as your having , and i would lean more towards old gas or a fuel restriction/blockage cause by old gas causing the hard starting , as long as you have eliminated the valve lash is correct (who shimmed the valves you or the dealer ??) , and have confirmed the timing is correct and that the timing chain is not worn (worn it will cause erratic idle and running , but it still should start fairly easy)

    Go over those items and report back with findings
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
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    Weiser , Idaho
  • Tobybruss
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    Joined:Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:58 pm

    by Tobybruss » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:53 am

    Thanks for your advice, after considering this I pulled the timing cover off today and looked over everything. The timing chain guides appear fine and the tensioner looks to be operating correctly. I will post two lots of pics. The first is with the RHS gear dots aligned at TDC but the timing mark on the flywheel is slightly off? and the notches on the cam gear are slightly over-rotated.

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    When turning the flywheel by hand to line up the TDC marks on the flywheel, the cam gear notches line up but the dot on the RHS gears are over rotated. I was thinking maybe I should replace the timing chain anyway, even though I don't think its that bad.

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    On another note there was a lot of fine metal build up on the stators and around the inner flywheel which would have reduced the ability to generate voltage I think. This was all cleaned of bike the bike didn't change that much. It does run after several kicks. It coughs and splutters a bit like its trying to start then all of a sudden it will run. Let it run for a minute then try again and it needs several kicks again. I found today (hot day) it needed the fast idle pulled out to run where as you shouldn't need it unless it was quite cool.
  • User avatar
    JimDirt
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    Joined:Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:31 pm

    by JimDirt » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:02 am

    The marks are off enough to indicate a worn timing chain , so i would replace it no matter what , since you already have the ignition cover off , your half way there

    I would also look into a lean fuel condition , with either a slightly clogged injector , or a fuel pump or fuel delivery issue , as i do not believe the timing is the sole source of your starting issues , and even though you may have "cleaned" the system , there still might be a blockage or flow disruption
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
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    Weiser , Idaho
  • Tobybruss
    Posts:3
    Joined:Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:58 pm

    by Tobybruss » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:29 pm

    JimDirt wrote:The marks are off enough to indicate a worn timing chain , so i would replace it no matter what , since you already have the ignition cover off , your half way there

    I would also look into a lean fuel condition , with either a slightly clogged injector , or a fuel pump or fuel delivery issue , as i do not believe the timing is the sole source of your starting issues , and even though you may have "cleaned" the system , there still might be a blockage or flow disruption


    Thanks Jimdirt. I'll get a new chain and look into how to get the flywheel off. I've got a puller the right size. Just have to find a procedure for doing it. I forgot to mention I check voltage to the fuel pump which was 12v every kick. Then I hooked 12v up to the pump itself and it gave good flow and pressure on the bench. I could only check voltage at the coil pack which maxed at 1.7v every kick. That was using a digital multimeter. Thanks for your help.
  • mossman77
    Posts:316
    Joined:Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:28 am

    by mossman77 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:58 pm

    You're not going to get an accurate measurement for the coil voltage using a multimeter alone. You need a peak detector. You can easily make one yourself with a few diodes and a capacitor. The coil voltage shoule be a couple hundred volts.
    2007 CRF250X
    2004 CRF230F (sold)

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