[argmister]

So I have read and watched countless how to's and info on fork rebuilds etc.

Got my 05 crf450r about 3 yrs ago. When I first got it, I replaced leaky fork seals and oil in the outer tube only. Recently it started making some moaning noises so I assumed the bushings were worn out, and I was right. So to the how-to's I went and realized this will be super simple...

Well upon dis-assembly..

The springs only measured about 18.75 in long and have no markings on them and both sides have about an inch worth of washers stacked under them..WTF??? Stock springs have no markings on them but should measure 19.5in long... Previous owner trying to make them stiffer and in turn smashed the springs shorter?? They show no signs of being cut.

The rear shock has been re-sprung and had a shock therapy sticker on them, But a google search of shock therapy came up with nothing.

The forks have been revalved cause the nut has been ground off, So I might just leave that alone assuming it was valved to a heavier person...but not sure if it is a desert/enduro valving...Should I go gold valves? Don't quite have the cash to hand it over to somebody.

Last but not least. The springs in the dampner assembly are really loose. Is that normal?? If I push up on the spring bucket the sit perfect, Does the oil keep pressure on it normaly
? All the diy videos don't really show the dampner assy

[JimDirt]

OK , first , the springs are most likely aftermarket , and the washers are to make up for the length difference , the rate will not change by adding or removing washers , BUT , the front sag will , i am guessing if you measure all the washers and the springs it will equal or be very close to the height of the stock springs as by your description

Shock Therapy is Amsoil's shock oil brand name

Valving is not really done per rider weight as it is done for the type of riding and the skill level of the rider , so your going to have to put it to the test riding to figure out if it works best for your skill and needs

Springs are to hold the bike up so the suspension can work when its supposed to in the stroke , the outer oil is mainly for lubrication and bottoming resistance (less air space), the cartridge oil for dampening in conjunction with the valving setup

If the springs are not for your weight the valving cant do its job because the valving is progressive and if the bike is already sagging too much because of too light of spring , the valving wont work when it needs to and actually cause a worse ride then the wrong valving would , though you can mix-match valving and springs to work together , for example , i weigh 210 ,235 in riding gear , i setup my 450X like a Endurocross bike , it has very soft valving , but springs 2 sizes stiffer than i need for my weight , if you watch Endurocross the bikes compress easily yet the suspension stays up where it needs to be , this gives a plush ride without bottoming or deflection , springs for my weight would be 0.49 (stock is 0.47) , i run 0.52 (fork springs)and the ride is cushy because of the compromise i did with the valving and springs(including Pressure Spring) to get the bike to work like i wanted

Gold Valves are the best budget bet for anyone that is mechanically inclined , and if you get stuck on something Race Tech has excellent phone (not toll free) and Email support , i use their Gold Valve kits and it is honestly what taught me how to do suspension (though i am not a professional , i have learned a lot in the past few years about it because of the kit(also with the added guidance of theDogger on TT in his Do It Yourself Valving topic for a 04 450R as well as talking to him on the phone , he opened my eyes to the fundamentals of valving and how to work with it to achieve what you want the bike to do

He has helped countless people with setups and guidance in the 450R section of the forums on TT *ThumperTalk* though i am not endorsing TT as a whole , but the suspension forum and theDogger's topic in the Honda 450R Forum on re-valving stands alone for the info given about suspension and re-valving and re-springing a bike properly , of anything i have ever read anywhere about suspension , i believe there over 1,000 pages of reading in his topic , which i really only go to TT to mainly read the Suspension forum and theDogger's topic)

As far as the Pressure Springs in the Fork Cap Assembly (Inner Cartridge) , yes they are normally loose , you can change the rate of the Pressure Spring to take away some of the initial hits , stock would be 1.9 rate , i run 1.76 in both my bikes (the same rate Kevin Windham runs in his bikes , though i do not claim to be anywhere near Windham's riding skill , but the rate really helped me with some issues i had on the track as well as off road riding).............Hopefully that answered some of your questions , They sell the Gold Valve kits here on Crf's Only , and anything else you might need for redoing the suspension

That said i have Gold Valve Kits in both my bikes , they are about $165 for each end so about $330 plus springs if needed (about $100 for each end)and are worth every penny , it will get you started in valving and you will learn a lot about suspension in the process , and its not that hard once you learn how , i have been a bike mechanic for years but was too afraid to try valving , now i love doing it , i even bought my own Nitrogen bottle and gauge setup so i can recharge my own or others shocks (about $250 total for the tank and gauge setup) , but you can usually get your shock recharged at any bike shop that does suspension for about $10-$15 depending on the shop

Anyway hope that answered most of your questions

[argmister]

Thank you for the input, Yes I have read your posts and the thread on TT. Alot of good info

Springs I assumed at first were aftermarket but I couldn't find any markings on them, but yes they do equal about the same length. The springs seem super soft and are actually bent a bit. Im thinking this is my biggest problem.I cold push the fork about half way down before I felt any feedback.

The sticker did not match there logo at all but my friend who is an amsoil rep, said He thinks it was their old logo.

When I first got the bike it had the biggest desert tank you could get for the r,since I have put an x tank on it, so i'm leaning towards I should leave the valving alone for now, assuming it was for desert/enduro riding.It does have a v shape to the stack. But like you said, I should ride it first. And I believe it will be worlds diff if I spring them correctly.

The pressure springs I was thinking about going to a 1.8kg, as per race tech they said stock was 2.1kg. But is there anyway to tell what I have now??

"That said i have Gold Valve Kits in both my bikes , they are about $165 for each end"

This is a ? I forgot to ask. Do I need to get the rebound valving and compression kit?? If so then valving is a bit out of the budget.

[JimDirt]

As far as markings , sometimes they have notches at one end on the bottom or top (flat part) sometimes they just paint a colored dot on them ,which usually wears off , so the only real way to find out is to find someone with a actual spring tester OR you measure them using this (this is how i do it , it is really accurate)

http://www.racingsuspensionproducts.com ... 20rate.htm

Or you can measure them by checking your sag , though its not as accurate it will get you in the ballpark of what the rate is , if you use the stock Race Sag and Free Sag , it will tell you how far off you are from stock , if the sag goes out of what the recommendations show then you will need new springs regardless so when you purchase springs they will be the correct rate and take the guess work out of it , and you can still use the calculator i linked above to figure it out to get the exact rate

What i am guessing is they are 0.44 , as that is the most common for lighter riders or people that ride off road that do not change the valving (even though its the wrong way to go about it) , as far as Pressure springs , i think that calculator will also tell you the rate , as i do not believe i found any markings on my Factory Connection ones i got (i got Race Tech main springs , but got the FC Pressure Springs just because of the price i got them for , if you have issues with brake bumps or initial hits slamming your wrists then lighter Pressure Springs will help (this is the reason i went with the 1.76) , the suspension was great after re-valving everywhere but the very first part of movement , the Pressure Springs fixed this issue

as far as the stack it will usually always be V shaped , but its the amount of and thickness of each size shim that determines the actual dampening characteristics of the stack





And yes you can use just the Compression kit (the normal kit) and be fine , if you were a A rider and seriously competitive at a"Pro" level then i would say get the Rebound kit as well , but the average rider does not need it and wont notice much difference ,especially if your not sensitive to changes , if you can afford it , its nice to have , but what i found is try the simple approach first , if you change everything at once , you wont know what gave the benefit or where , so start with the Compression kit , if it does not eventually get you what your looking for after trying different stack setups and altering oil levels in the outer chamber , you can always add the Rebound kit later , it will also help you determine what is doing what and when

[argmister]

After going on a 105 mile round trip ride a few weekends ago with a few big money riders on there 450x's and just watching the guys bikes act like a trophy truck over the whoop sections..and me getting beat to crap..I realized I needed to dive into suspension.

Im not the fittest fiddle in the world so my main goal is plushness for long rides.

I think my plan is going to be new springs in the front,all bushings and seals and a good oil. I will try and find out the pressure springs but probably leave those alone and the valving for now. The rear will be bushings,bearings,oil. Then set the sag etc and try it out. Just got done putting a new head on the thing so funds are low. Atleast doing these things I will have a good starting point.

One more ? though. I do want to replace the seals that are inside the damper/rod assy. The ones you need to drill the peen's out etc. Would that be the damping rod shaft seal and the reservoir rod shaft seal from race techs website?

[JimDirt]

The seal on the inside (inner chamber) does not need anything drilled out , you remove the Fork Cap Assembly and remove the C-Clip and heat the seal and remove it , you only need to replace this seal if when you install the Inner Chamber and bleed it , and try to compress the shaft and it stays in or it stays in and you pull it out and it sucks back in , then it means the seal is bleeding by and needs replaced , as long as the inner chamber holds its pressure the seal is fine

I assume you are talking about the seal that sits inside the Free Piston ,and the Dampening Rod Seal (which i dont have a picture of)does need the drilling , though every time i had the inner cartridge leaking issue it has always been the Free Piston seal , i have not had the Rod seal go bad yet ,and don't know of many people that have ....that said , if its not leaking and not causing the rod to suck in or not extend fully , then it does not need to be replaced



Video of Damper Rod Seal Removal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Yk-b1-UJAY


On a side note , the 450R suspension will never be as plush as the 450X suspension due to the parts themselves , the fork tubes are stiffer on the R as well as the rake of the forks is different , all this leads to plushness , though you will get it very nice , the only way to get the bike to "feel" like a X is to buy a X or at least buy X forks and re-valve them , that said , doing what your doing will get you as close as you can get once you do everything

A MX bike set up for off-road will always be a MX bike....set up for off-road , it will never feel the same as a true off-road bike , my R works pretty good as a off-road/MX bike , its good at both , but its not as excellent as my X is , or even as good as the X is in stock form compared to the R setup for for off-road...So make sure to keep that in mind thru all this , you will definitely make vast improvements , but it will never feel like a X

Though i can ride over the same stuff with my R that i can with my X , it just is a little harsher here and there , but anyone that rides it cant believe how good it does compared to most R's off-road

I am 54 (will be 55 in Aug.) and suffered a few broken backs and a broken neck as well as bad arthritis and bursitis , so comfort for me is a must on a 50-80 mile trail ride , my shoulders cant take the beating they did 20 years ago , so i set my bikes up as close to each other as possible ,but kept the R just a little stiffer so i can still ride it on the MX track , you either go full off-road or compromise between the track usability and off-road plushness , you will never have both with a R, but i bet if you rode my R you would like it very much with just the Gold Valve Kit and Pressure Spring change (though i re-valved it a few times before i got it exactly where i wanted it, which once you do it a few times , it only takes about a half hour from start to finish to change the valving)

[argmister]

Im a kinda guy that goes...Im in there, it's only a couple bux...might as well replace it. I am talking about the seal that he covers in this video and the one you described in the first paragraph. I would rather not find out its bad once I get everything going and have to order more parts for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Yk-b1-UJAY


I came off a 03 ktm 625sxc..That thing was more comfy then a XR650..but it was also 300+dry...so going to this bike is def a diff story. I don't do track at all and don't plan to either unless im invited by a friend who wants to pay the fee to get it,then im game. I am more long range adventure kinda guy.

[argmister]

Wrote my response out, went to lunch, then came back and submitted it. Ok I think I will pass on the seal that needs the drilling then and just do the other one. But I will order it just in case. But to the original question..

Would that be the damping rod shaft seal and the reservoir rod shaft seal from race techs website?

[JimDirt]

Show me a link to the seal you are talking about

[argmister]

http://racetech.com/ProductSearch/1/Honda/CRF450R/2005

Scroll down to twin-chamber replacement parts and it is the first two seals. I could call them but I am currently working...a little bit.


Actually about to take the valve apart and measure the shims etc. Its slow right now.

[JimDirt]

The first one is the one you have to drill out ,and the second one is the Free Piston seal that removes with a propane torch fairly easily (after you take apart the Fork Cap Assembly as i showed in the second pic (which is why then would be a good time to change the Pressure Spring since you have it apart) , also as a heads up in case you get all rambunctious , when you take it apart its not critical if your replacing the seal , but if your not replacing the seal (say to change the Pressure Spring for example) but when you re-assemble the Cap Assembly you have to put lots of white thread sealing tape on the threads to keep the sharp threads from tearing the new seal on the Free Piston when sliding it back on the shaft

Also VERY IMPORTANT , you need to count the clicks in the Compression Clicker BEFORE you take it apart , take note of the number of clicks and when the clicker stops (in and out stopping point) , if its 26 1/4 clicks , or 26 5/8 clicks ,or 25 1/8 clicks , whatever it is (confirm this by checking both compression clickers to confirm they are the same or as close as possible to each other), write this down EXACTLY

Then when assembling you snug everything down , then count the clicks , if it is off from your note , then move the locknut (in the middle of the cap assembly shaft on the threads) 1/8 of a inch at a time one way or the other , then snug it down and check it , to get the exact click movement as original , otherwise when you put it back together the compression will not be the same from one fork to the other which is a big issue , if you have 26 clicks on one and 24 1/2 or 25 on the other....so keep that in mind , there are no instructions for this , you just have to know to do it

[argmister]

I did not remove the floating piston and I dont plan on replacing that seal but I might.

Im not to worried about the compression setting cause more then likely I am going to start at stock setting and go from there. But I am leaving one completely together for reference just in case. I did count though..it was 13 and like 1/8 click to full soft.

The spring has no markings and the link you sent me didn't work for the spring cause it came up to like 19.8kg.[/img]

Isn't there a seal on the actual damper rod that's easy to replace? The one with the two sided nut/sleeve on the end.

[argmister]

My work computer blocks all images from hosting sights etc for some reason. When I get home ill come on here.

Here is what my valves look like..

nut

cap thing

spring

30x40mm

(valve)

9 x30
2 x28
27
25
23
21
20
19
18

22
24
26
Then a thick washer
then a bunch of tiny valves, I assume just taking up extra space.

[JimDirt]

I did not remove the floating piston and I dont plan on replacing that seal but I might.

Im not to worried about the compression setting cause more then likely I am going to start at stock setting and go from there. But I am leaving one completely together for reference just in case. I did count though..it was 13 and like 1/8 click to full soft.

The spring has no markings and the link you sent me didn't work for the spring cause it came up to like 19.8kg.[/img]

Isn't there a seal on the actual damper rod that's easy to replace? The one with the two sided nut/sleeve on the end.

Its not being worried about it being at 12 clicks or whatever , its about getting the clickers to be at the correct number of clicks , in other words , if you just slap it together without measuring this , you might have 1 fork that will only turn 10 clicks ,period and the other 13 , so you could not match the settings from fork to fork , that is what this is for , its not about clicker preference of ride comfort its about the forks working properly by the clickers set how it is from the factory , because placement of the locknut can change the setting and you will never be able to tune your forks properly

i just used that Calculator on a pair of my springs and for
Active Coils: i put in 26

For Outside Diameter: i put in 1.7

For Wire Diameter: i put in .200

It came up with 0.4680504 which is 0.46 , which is the stock rate of my 450X spring , so you must have entered the number of ACTIVE coils wrong , which means you count any coil that is ABOVE the flat coil at each end

As far as the seal goes , there is no seal on the Dampening Rod itself , just the one you have to drill out on the inner chamber end , and the one on the Free Piston , that is the only seals there besides your Fork Seals

Also , i looked at my 04 manual and my 07 manual and both say 16 or more clicks to use , so you must not have counted right , it should have at least 16 clicks not 13

[argmister]

I was using the calculator for my pressure springs and it didn't work. Sorry for confusion.


So the cap does not bottom out on the center section(rod with the fine threads)and then the lock nut holds it on?

So the lock nut defines the depth that the cap screws onto the rod?

I checked the other one and it was 14 clicks to full soft and 9 clicks to full hard. Checked it twice.

So if I screwed the cap all the way onto the rod I wouldnt be able to get 23 clicks of adjustment? Maybe only like 20? Am I understanding you correctly?