2003 450r issues..
  • Cameron7007
    Posts: 5
    Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:44 pm

    2003 450r issues..

    by Cameron7007 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:13 pm

    Hey everybody, This is long winded cause I have a lot to explain, but I’m Having some issues with my 03 R.

    I’ve owned it for about 4 years, rebuilt it once about 2 years ago with all the fancy stuff, hot rods balanced crank, hot rods relived rod, kibble white stainless valves and springs, and so on.

    Maybe 50 hours since that rebuild, and it was workin great with normal maintenance and whatnot.

    When The problem started it was a quick cut out about 40 minutes into a ride. Decided to continue on back to camp, about 3 minutes away, it bogged and sputtered real bad, wouldn’t really run past 1/4 throttle without sputtering and backfiring real bad.

    Did as much trouble shooting as I could while out in the desert (checked and cleaned the carb, disconnected tps, disconnected the killswitch, checked the flywheel/stator, tapped the coil/cdi box), and it kept having the same issue.

    After about an hour of starting it several times, trying to rev it more than 1/4, shutting it down, and trying to change something, it finally clicked. Loud and fast lol...

    Left side crank seal failed, the body of the seal made its way into the timing chain and caused it to jump time.

    Tore it down, found the seal, and looked everything over. There was some witness marks where the piston contacted the valves, but they moved smoothly and easily, didn’t look bent, and doing a kind of leak test with some gasoline, the valves still sealed perfectly without any bleed through of gas. So I reused the entire head. Valves and all.

    Got one of those wrench rabbit rebuild kits, got everything replaced, buttoned up, and installed back in the frame.

    Started up first kick (for once) and idled real smooth (for once) and was real responsive with throttle input.

    Well after a few heat cycles, checked the fluids and spark plug, everything looked good so I decided to take it on a ride. About 35 miles, never went over 5/8-3/4 throttle, did a few heat cycles while on the ride.

    Got back to the house let it cool for about an hour and a half, went for another couple heat cycles, and the same 1/4 throttle issue started again.

    I’ve checked the new left side seal behind the flywheel (previously failed), timing, spark, fuel delivery, throttle cables, and I’m loss as what I should do next. No matter what I do, the same issue with everything.

    Any ideas? I can’t figure this out and I’m about ready to throw it in the trash.

    Thank you!
  • User avatar
    JimDirt
    Posts: 4406
    Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:31 pm

    Re: 2003 450r issues..

    by JimDirt » Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:48 am

    Welcome to the site !! \:D/

    I am beginning to think this is a electrical issue , you did not mention that you did a full test on the electrical system when you got back from either ride where it sputtered , you just mentioned doing a field test while on the first ride ..... I am thinking either the Stator , Coil or CDI is breaking down once it gets warm/hot , if it is the CDI , there is not a real way to test it breaking down , you will only get readings while sitting , but not under a load , as it seems this failure needs the engine temps up to cause this issue .....

    That is where I would focus my efforts ..... if you have a Service Manual , it will give you all the tests and procedures , if not , I have one , as I had a 02 (just sold it after 12 years , because I got a 20) and I can post whatever section you need ....
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • Cameron7007
    Posts: 5
    Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:44 pm

    Re: 2003 450r issues..

    by Cameron7007 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:12 am

    Welcome to the site !! \:D/

    I am beginning to think this is a electrical issue , you did not mention that you did a full test on the electrical system when you got back from either ride where it sputtered , you just mentioned doing a field test while on the first ride ..... I am thinking either the Stator , Coil or CDI is breaking down once it gets warm/hot , if it is the CDI , there is not a real way to test it breaking down , you will only get readings while sitting , but not under a load , as it seems this failure needs the engine temps up to cause this issue .....

    That is where I would focus my efforts ..... if you have a Service Manual , it will give you all the tests and procedures , if not , I have one , as I had a 02 (just sold it after 12 years , because I got a 20) and I can post whatever section you need ....
    Thanks for the reply!

    Messing with it last night, I’m also leaning toward electrical. Shortly after I made the OP, I put in a new spark plug, and whaddya know, it worked for all of 3 minutes. Then it seemed like it flamed out (somewhat common with this particular bike), but started first kick and had the same 1/4 throttle issue.

    I’ll check everything in the ignition cover again when I’m near the bike, and make sure there isn’t any metal shavings on the coil pickup (the one by the stator. not sure if that’s what it’s called) and do some more resistance testing.

    A few questions though, is the spark plug wire supposed to be able to come off the coil? Saw somebody do this a long time ago to check for corrosion, but I don’t remember if it was on a crf.

    Any idea what the values I should be getting are on the coil, the spark plug wire, and the pickup? If your 02 manual shows that, it would be really helpful cause I was getting 200k+ ohms across the coil.

    And last but not least, are you aware of anybody updating the electronics? I thought I read something about the 05 stuff being a direct swap as long as I get the harness, does that mean stator too?

    Thanks again!
  • User avatar
    JimDirt
    Posts: 4406
    Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:31 pm

    Re: 2003 450r issues..

    by JimDirt » Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:31 pm

    Welcome to the site !! \:D/

    I am beginning to think this is a electrical issue , you did not mention that you did a full test on the electrical system when you got back from either ride where it sputtered , you just mentioned doing a field test while on the first ride ..... I am thinking either the Stator , Coil or CDI is breaking down once it gets warm/hot , if it is the CDI , there is not a real way to test it breaking down , you will only get readings while sitting , but not under a load , as it seems this failure needs the engine temps up to cause this issue .....

    That is where I would focus my efforts ..... if you have a Service Manual , it will give you all the tests and procedures , if not , I have one , as I had a 02 (just sold it after 12 years , because I got a 20) and I can post whatever section you need ....
    Thanks for the reply!

    Messing with it last night, I’m also leaning toward electrical. Shortly after I made the OP, I put in a new spark plug, and whaddya know, it worked for all of 3 minutes. Then it seemed like it flamed out (somewhat common with this particular bike), but started first kick and had the same 1/4 throttle issue.

    I’ll check everything in the ignition cover again when I’m near the bike, and make sure there isn’t any metal shavings on the coil pickup (the one by the stator. not sure if that’s what it’s called) and do some more resistance testing.

    A few questions though, is the spark plug wire supposed to be able to come off the coil? Saw somebody do this a long time ago to check for corrosion, but I don’t remember if it was on a crf.
    No the plug wire should not come off the coil , but the spark plug boot can unscrew , it also has a resister in it (the boot) , so that could be a issue
    Any idea what the values I should be getting are on the coil, the spark plug wire, and the pickup? If your 02 manual shows that, it would be really helpful cause I was getting 200k+ ohms across the coil.
    Give me a bit , and I will post up the info from the Service Manual

    And last but not least, are you aware of anybody updating the electronics? I thought I read something about the 05 stuff being a direct swap as long as I get the harness, does that mean stator too?
    Aftermarket electronics , yes , swapping to a later year from OEM ... not that I am aware of , for the aftermarket ones as far as stator goes , will swap from 02-08 , I believe the coil will as well , the CDI , is different , I believe 02-03 is the same , then 04-08 , as far as I can remember , it is because of the wire connections , and timing if I remember correctly ... though I could be wrong , the only way to know for sure is to look at the CDI Schematic for each year and see if the connections are the same ....

    I will try to get everything posted up as soon as I can gather all the info and upload it , it will take a bit to do it though , so be patient , if I don't get it posted up tonight , I will by tomorrow ...

    Thanks again!
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • Cameron7007
    Posts: 5
    Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:44 pm

    Re: 2003 450r issues..

    by Cameron7007 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:10 pm

    Welcome to the site !! \:D/

    I am beginning to think this is a electrical issue , you did not mention that you did a full test on the electrical system when you got back from either ride where it sputtered , you just mentioned doing a field test while on the first ride ..... I am thinking either the Stator , Coil or CDI is breaking down once it gets warm/hot , if it is the CDI , there is not a real way to test it breaking down , you will only get readings while sitting , but not under a load , as it seems this failure needs the engine temps up to cause this issue .....

    That is where I would focus my efforts ..... if you have a Service Manual , it will give you all the tests and procedures , if not , I have one , as I had a 02 (just sold it after 12 years , because I got a 20) and I can post whatever section you need ....
    Thanks for the reply!

    Messing with it last night, I’m also leaning toward electrical. Shortly after I made the OP, I put in a new spark plug, and whaddya know, it worked for all of 3 minutes. Then it seemed like it flamed out (somewhat common with this particular bike), but started first kick and had the same 1/4 throttle issue.

    I’ll check everything in the ignition cover again when I’m near the bike, and make sure there isn’t any metal shavings on the coil pickup (the one by the stator. not sure if that’s what it’s called) and do some more resistance testing.

    A few questions though, is the spark plug wire supposed to be able to come off the coil? Saw somebody do this a long time ago to check for corrosion, but I don’t remember if it was on a crf.
    No the plug wire should not come off the coil , but the spark plug boot can unscrew , it also has a resister in it (the boot) , so that could be a issue
    Any idea what the values I should be getting are on the coil, the spark plug wire, and the pickup? If your 02 manual shows that, it would be really helpful cause I was getting 200k+ ohms across the coil.
    Give me a bit , and I will post up the info from the Service Manual

    And last but not least, are you aware of anybody updating the electronics? I thought I read something about the 05 stuff being a direct swap as long as I get the harness, does that mean stator too?
    Aftermarket electronics , yes , swapping to a later year from OEM ... not that I am aware of , for the aftermarket ones as far as stator goes , will swap from 02-08 , I believe the coil will as well , the CDI , is different , I believe 02-03 is the same , then 04-08 , as far as I can remember , it is because of the wire connections , and timing if I remember correctly ... though I could be wrong , the only way to know for sure is to look at the CDI Schematic for each year and see if the connections are the same ....

    I will try to get everything posted up as soon as I can gather all the info and upload it , it will take a bit to do it though , so be patient , if I don't get it posted up tonight , I will by tomorrow ...

    Thanks again!
    No problem at all! I probably won’t be able to work on the bike again until after new year’s.

    I’ll hold off and see if a few others can chime in on the updated electronics.

    Thank you!
  • Cameron7007
    Posts: 5
    Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:44 pm

    Re: 2003 450r issues..

    by Cameron7007 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:42 am

    Update... still haven’t been at work not able to tinker on the bike, but did a ton of research and whatnot, bought the 02-08 service manual, and decided to order up the entire electronics set from an 05 with “low hours” from fleabay. I picked 05 cause it was a lot cheaper than 06, and from what I’ve heard, 05-06 were the best years pre fuel injection.

    Also.... From what I’ve gathered, based off PART NUMBERS ONLY in the service manual.
    If anybody can confirm or deny any of this info, that’d be great, I don’t wanna spread bad/inaccurate info.

    The crank from 02-08 has a different part number every year. But not sure of the changes to the side where the flywheel mounts..

    The flywheel from 04-08 is the same. The only difference I’ve noticed from the 02-03 flywheel to the 04-08 is more holes drilled, so I’m inclined to believe they’re all interchangeable, but haven’t tested anything.

    The stator
    • 02 *might* be different because you can only buy the whole assembly (flywheel and stator together)
    • 03 is a whole assembly as well with a different part number from 02
    • 04 is it’s own part based on part number
    • 05-07 share the same based on part number
    • 08 is its own part based on part number

    *Note* from what I’ve seen in pictures, the bolt pattern stays the same throughout, so maybe an 08 stator can go on an 02 provided you have the wire harness.

    The ignition coil
    • 02 has its own part number
    • 03-07 share the same part number
    • 08 has its own part number

    I can edit this post later and add more stuff I’ve gathered, but I haven’t tested any of this to be true. Just basing everything off part numbers shared between the different years.

    When I get the 05 setup around the 7th, I’ll update the thread on how/if it fits and works.
  • User avatar
    JimDirt
    Posts: 4406
    Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:31 pm

    Re: 2003 450r issues..

    by JimDirt » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:33 pm

    Yea , the stators have different # because of wiring/connections , the bolt up is the same , the flywheels , 02 is a different weight , as is each year that is mentioned , will they bolt up ... yea , will they function the same ...no , because of the different weight , it changes the characteristics of the power delivery , which affects timing , etc.

    Since you got the manual , I won't bother posting up the images from mine , as you have all that info now ...

    And yea , keep us posted on what fits/works together , as I never tried running different year parts on my 02 as far as electrical goes , with the exception of the coil , , and non related to electrical , a 03 swingarm and linkage , and airbox , and a 05 carb , you can swap later year forks , but not internals , as 03 is different than 02 , and 04 is different from 03 and 04-08 is different than 03 (internally in the cartridge as well as the tubes and lengths , as well as later years the brake caliper mount is different so you have to swap the entire brake caliper mounts with the forks , as well as the fork lugs have different offsets , so that will change the handling as well as when ordering parts ..... same goes for shock , the body is different length in later years as is the shock shaft length as well as the clevis from 02-03 , then 04 , then 05 - 07 then 08 (where the rebound adjuster is) , that much I know from messing with my 02 for 12 years ......
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • Cameron7007
    Posts: 5
    Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:44 pm

    Re: 2003 450r issues..

    by Cameron7007 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:58 pm

    Right on, thanks Jim for the info!

    I figured the power delivery would be different since the heavy flywheels take away some of the aggressiveness due to the higher rotating mass resisting movement, the lighter one should add to the aggressiveness in theory.

    Wasn’t aware of timing possibly being affected though. I wonder if just swapping the flywheel to the 05 and keeping the 03 pickup would cause those issues since the magnets are probably in a different location. I ordered the 05 pickup to go with the 05 flywheel as well, but I might as well experiment while it’s apart.

    I’ll try the 05 pickup with the 03 flywheel, and vise versa to see if there’s any problems.

    Would you have any info of anybody chucking up some stainless or tungsten into a lathe and making their own bolt on style weight? Sounds sketchy at best, but if the steahly and tmv ones work, why not...?

    I did notice a lot more holes in pictures of the 05 flywheel, maybe I can press some tungsten slugs w/green loctite into them to try and gain some weight back?

    So many routes to take.

    I kinda bounce around with thoughts a lot, but Should be able to get home around the 7th to tinker, and I’ll update.

    Also, Thanks for the offer for the manual, I just decided to bite the bullet and buy one finally. Kinda over trying to bum certain pages off other people lol.

    Happy new year!

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