07 450r starting no start issue
  • punkrockkiel
    Posts: 34
    Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:00 pm

    07 450r starting no start issue

    by punkrockkiel » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:33 pm

    feel like a total noob asking soo many questions right off the bat but I'm at a loss I can fix everyone elses bike except mine..
    07 crf450r

    new part

    hot rods crank, wiseco piston, 450x gears, kibblewhite valves, kibblewhite valve train, oil pump, cam chain, cam chain guides, oil pump pick up, oem main bearings, spark plug, oem cylinder, clutch basket, clutch, bearings in the bottom end, mainual cam chain tentionser. pilot, main jet, needle thoroughly cleaned carb.



    bike ran before rebuild but oil wasnt changed much so it needed rebuilt. rebuilt complete motor and had a compression issue kicking it over and swapped out the 07-08 cam, cam gear and decompression stuff back to 02-06 stg 1 hot cam, gear and decompression assembly.



    90+psi kicking it over compression

    has blue spark kicking it by hand and checking for spark to the best i can do doing it by myself

    recleaned car and set the idle screw and slide to 3/32nd opening

    needle is on 3rd clip postion

    tps was off the carb to clean it but lined back up with the white paint mark

    swapped coil cause mine looked bad but i used it at first and had same blue spark

    gas is new and had a splash of vp c12 in it also

    clear fuel line going to carb shows fuel is leaving the car and going into cylinder but not starting



    only issue i had was the bike is supermoto ready, so i wired in a bunch of stuff and soldered all the wiring and shortened harnesses and shrink wrapped it all. using a ballistic battery, i connected the pos and neg wrong and for 2, 3 seconds max backwards.......it started to melt the power and ground wire going to the rectifier/voltage regulator and i wonder if im not getting enough spark?

    could the 2 yellow wires be switched and not getting enough spark?

    the 2 plugs from the stator going to main harness i swapped also even tho color to color they were correct.

    kill switch is incorperated into the key switch, it works, i kicked it by hand a few times with no spark til ir realized i didnt turn the key on.



    I don't know if I'm forgetting something but that's where I'm at. I'm at a loss cause It shouldn't be this hard.
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    JimDirt
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    by JimDirt » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:56 pm

    OK , first off , your compression should be around 78 psi , not 90+ , this would indicate a De-Compressor issue/adjustment , if your using the 02 cam/tower , then your de-compressor gap is kind of critical , it should be 0.014 in (while a 0.011 is also in the right Exhaust valve) , also , what do you mean by "450X gears" , since the 450X transmission gears will not fit within the case of the R , i am guessing you are referring to the final drive ratio which would be the front/rear sprockets , IE: 13/51 , yes ??? , ....... though this would have nothing to do with your issue.......

    I would personally put the clip on the 4th position (from the top) which will help richen the mixture and help eliminate any bog/stumble you might get

    I am also concerned about the melting/hot wire issue , there is no telling what got fried (if anything) when that happened , is this some kind of Trail Tech kit or something with a battery pack behind the headlight shroud ?? , and is that where the wiring started to melt or was it elsewhere on the bike ??

    The issue is with a spark is it could short (intermittently or completely) any or all of your ignition system , you could get spark while just sitting there with the plug out , but with the plug in , under compression load , you may not be getting any spark

    OR , you are just having a fuel issue , a easy way to eliminate the compression spark and lean issue is by slightly dipping the tip of your plug in some fresh gas , (just get it damp) , then put in the plug fully , and hook up the wire , and try to kick it over , if it tries to fire then you know your ignition IS firing under compression and that you have a lean condition ....report back with your findings .....
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
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    Weiser , Idaho
  • punkrockkiel
    Posts: 34
    Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:00 pm

    by punkrockkiel » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:12 pm

    The 450x 2-5th gears all fit on the main shafts of the transmission in the later r bikes. The early r bikes need clearanced for 5th gear.
    Burning up the recifier, that was my fault for being stupid. All its there for is charging the battery.
    Ohm'd out the stator, 9-25, I get 23. 180-280 i get 234. I'm gonna go back and we are gonna try true RMS multimeter here in a minute. Kicking it over and checking spark I get one spark per kick. Shouldn't there be multiple sparks per kick? And I think your right about the fuel blowing out the spark. We are getting fuel cause we can smell it still being sucked in even with the spark plug out so that's fine I think.
    The decompression I'll adjust later but it is set at .014 on top of the .011 valve clearance but I checked it cause I just had to rule it out. I could tighten it up to lower the compression too.
    I'll check back tomorrow cause it's getting cold in the woods of PA and my buddy doesn't have reception in his garage.
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    JimDirt
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    by JimDirt » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:02 pm

    Did not know that on the gears , i always understood (from here and other sites , though i never confirmed this myself) that all the gears are too wide and the gear set would not fit between the cases for 02-08 450R's , so Trail Tech makes a Wide Ratio gear set for the 450R to somewhat mimic the X gearing , because everyone said you can't interchange the gears from one to the other without machining the gears and shaft http://www.crfsonly.com/catalog/product ... ts_id/3699 ....anyway

    For the de-compressor gap , 1mm would make a difference in kicking pressure , so give it a try , nothing to lose

    Yes you should be getting lots of spark's , not just 1 single spark , so that is what i would say is the main symptom causing the issue , so you need to keep troubleshooting the electrical system , it could be the short out cooked the CDI/ECM or the stator or the coil , i just recently (last fall) replaced all 3 on my 02R because of similar symptoms , the bike kept getting harder and harder to start , and when riding it would just die out of the blue if i was at a low rpm , drove me nuts , because it went from running perfect to not running within 2 rides with no shorting or anything to set it off , it just worked , then it didn't ..

    Where i live Cell service stops about a mile down the road , we can't get Cable TV , or Cable or DSL internet , everything is Satellite here and a land line phone that you cant even get internet on because the lines are so old you can't even get 56k , 12k-24k is the best they say you might get , i am 10 miles from any kind of town, completely surrounded by mountains covered with sagebrush , if you filled in the opening in the hills where the road to here is , you could make a lake , so i understand your reception sorrow :cry: lol ... but on the plus side , i can go hunting right in my yard , as we have plenty of Elk ,Deer Bear,Mountain Lion ,Bobcats , Wolves , Coyotes ,Pheasants, Quail ,also Ducks and Geese on the 7 acre pond, plus Bass in the pond , (when the otters don't eat them first) all around the 100+ acres i live on
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • punkrockkiel
    Posts: 34
    Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:00 pm

    by punkrockkiel » Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:18 pm

    After help from another post on here we checked the stator wires and found out stator is only putting out 10v. So there lies my problem. Even tho it ohm'd out fine, it was still junk.

    I plan on adjusting the decomp but the last thing I felt like doing was pulling the valve cover for the 7th time.

    I asked Ken about the gears before I bought them but I knew the older bikes needed clearanced so i was fine. Bike is gonna be a supermoto to start and then swapped to dirt wheels so I can get back up to PA coal region riding with friends.

    Thanx for the help and I'll get pictures and update to fully let know the stator worked. And it's also possible since we found out that you can swap 04-06 wiring and cdi to the 07 bike and have it run just the same since you can't just swap cdi to the 07 harness. Weird......
  • punkrockkiel
    Posts: 34
    Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:00 pm

    by punkrockkiel » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:30 am

    Back at it, still won't start.
    Recap....
    Sanded to bare metal the coil mount and frame to cylinder head for good ground.
    Tried 4 different coils (one from the bike as it ran before and trx quad I had)
    Tried 3 different wiring harnesses (jumper wired in an 05 harness and cdi)
    Tried 3 different cdi's (got another "said to be good 07 from eBay with harness and coil")
    Tried a second stator direct from trailtech (only thing I didnt get was flywheel they forgot to be put in a box)
    Tried 2 other new spark plugs

    Trying everything with kill switch connected and disconnected and each harness to coil to cdi and on each stator.
    Only issues we seen are when tps was connected I would get much of a spark.
    Second is when we kick it 5 times and then disconnect the cdi 4 pin connector and reconnect, it fires off one time without doing anything and you hear it clear as day thru exhaust.
    Me and about 5 other people are stumped beyond belief.
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    JimDirt
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    by JimDirt » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:11 pm

    WOW ! , this really sucks , i was hoping you would be riding by now ...

    So the spark your getting (intermittently ?)is 1 single spark , then reconnect wires and the bike "tries" to fire but still won't run ?? , or are you getting a "normal" spark , but not continually ??

    If you are replacing "everything" in the electrical system either 1 at a time or completely , and it still wont fire , then you may still have some kind of fuel delivery issue , in doing any of these "tests" did you pull the plug , dip it in gas and see if it attempted to or actually starts

    I am thinking a fuel issue is contributing to or be the main issues here , if it ran before the rebuild , then it should run now , so you need to verify the fuel is getting to the plug , possibly swapping the carb with another temporarily just to eliminate a internal blockage

    If you pump the throttle , then kick the bike over several times , then pull the plug , it should be damp but not soaked , but not dry either AND , the bike should fire or attempt to fire , i think you have several issues going on here , each enough on its own to cause issues , but combined they are creating a overwhelming scenario
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • punkrockkiel
    Posts: 34
    Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:00 pm

    by punkrockkiel » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:31 pm

    no we kept pulling the plugs, they were always wet. even tried starting fluid which will start with any kind of spark. when we pull the plug and kick it just to check spark again it deff pushes out the atomized fuel that was in the cylinder. and this is without hitting the throttle at all and kicking it over prolly 6 kicks.

    the spark is still intermittent.
    the last post I was typing from my phone.
    *correction, with the tps connected, my spark would almost go to nothing or no sparks. when it was disconnected I would get a few sparks per kick but they were yellow and not a good blue spark.

    everything is being changed out one at a time.
    I had my boss and a personal friend who works on street bikes and track bikes and is a track guide at the track and has worked on 1000's of bikes and he is stumped.

    right now the 2 07 cdi's are in the freezer to see if the freezer trick that someone suggested works at all.

    its pretty hard to believe that everything I have is bad electrical wise. timing is spot on and I had someone verify that but we don't get any attempt at it starting while kicking it. and if starting fluid wont ignite then there isn't enough spark.
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    JimDirt
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    by JimDirt » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:01 pm

    Since your getting "parts" off other bikes , have you systematically tried to swap YOUR parts to the OTHER bikes ?? , this might get you faster results than trying to decipher what is actually wrong by blindly swapping stuff TO yours , since you will have a "working/running" bike to start with , it might be easier and it will pretty much eliminate each item as you go , start with the easy ones like CDI , etc , then if no results swap YOUR harness last

    In swapping , i am including swapping Flywheel and Stator , and Kill Switch , EVERYTHING one by one to a known working bike

    And as a added confirmation , quadruple check your timing at the Ignition side , Cam and Counter Balancer marks , make absolutely sure ALL of them are aligned , so TDC , cam facing 2 O-Clock (rear of head) , cam marks flat with head , ignition mark and counter balancer (clutch side) marks , all lined up together

    And , just to be positive , re-check the valve adjustment just to re-confirm the confirmation

    This really is puzzling :?
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • punkrockkiel
    Posts: 34
    Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:00 pm

    by punkrockkiel » Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:44 am

    finding another 07-08 bike would be like finding a unicorn around here and I'm basically the only person I know with a crf. so finding another bike to swap parts to, is gonna be tough.
    I just find it highly unlikely that the bike can run and then I take it apart and put everything in bags and then into a tote and rebuild the bike in 6 months or so and put it back together and all or even one of the parts crapped out sitting in the same weather a bike stored in a garage would sit in.
    I'm gonna try a stock stator and flywheel. then ill wait til Monday when the trailtech flywheel shows up and try that.

    I froxe the cdi's and found they both produced a blue spark and consistant but just one spark per kick basically. put plug in the bike and kicked and not a hint of actually firing. pull plug out and its wet.

    I'm gonna recheck a bunch of stuff today and make a list of what ive done. this shouldn't be that hard cause its simple system. I need to pull the tps and adjust that also. id also like to say I'm a noob with no idea of anything but when I got 5 great mechanics puzzled also, Its weird.
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    JimDirt
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    by JimDirt » Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:27 am

    Sorry , i was assuming that all the parts you tried , you had removed from "local" bikes , so i figured if you swapped to them , this would eliminate each part without a doubt

    I feel for ya :cry:

    But like i mentioned , i had a similar issue and after testing i would find high end on one , and low end voltage on another , and it ended up that i had to replace my Coil, Stator , and CDI , as they all mysteriously went bad at the same time , after replacement , bike starts first or second kick almost every time , but each part would pass part of the test , but not all
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • punkrockkiel
    Posts: 34
    Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:00 pm

    by punkrockkiel » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:13 pm

    I started over like I had no idea today. real fun.

    took off my harness and ohm'd it out, and it was perfect.
    pulled the valve cover and checked valves, they were good still.
    double checked decompression PSI. I'm down to like 65 psi by the 6-7th kick. (assuming a lot of the fuel that's been going thru has kinda washed out the rings) should have stock a trx 3 in ring piston in but I didn't know better. ill assume that's all fine for enough compression to kick over.
    gonna borrow leakdown tester from a friend tomorrow and just check for giggles.
    also gonna borrow the rms multimeter and check the new stator output.

    I was cruising thru threads and read someone swapped out everything and then put on a heavier flywheel and his bike fired up finally.

    my trx450r stator cover would get ripped outta your hand sticking the cover on the bike and I noticed the crf doesn't do it and I know the crf is smaller but it should still have a lot more pull to it when putting on and taking off. ill check back tomorrow with my findings.

    believe me, I'm burned out and mentally drained cause I can fix everyone elses bikes except mine.
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    JimDirt
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    by JimDirt » Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:29 pm

    Yea i hear ya !! , it sucks when your stumped

    As far as the TRX stator/flywheel , the TRX is E-Start correct ?? , so it would have a heavier magnet and more winding's than the CRF

    Dont forget there is high and low readings , so you need to make sure when you check , that it has both within spec , if it has correct high readings but the low are off , or vice versa , then the stator is bad (and/or the flywheel) , same goes for coil and CDI
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • punkrockkiel
    Posts: 34
    Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:00 pm

    by punkrockkiel » Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:15 pm

    my trx was 05 so it was straight kicker, no e-start. but correct, heavier stuff altogether.

    I checked the stator again...it ohms out perfect. so I borrowed my friends rms multimeter and checked for actual output volt readings.
    50v min, I get 9v max kicking it over no spark plug in so I can cycle it easier
    0.7v min, I get nothing from the ignition pick up.

    so either the flywheel (only thing I didn't change) is bad or I got 2 bad stators even tho the last one worked fine.

    I also took the carb off and reset the tps, that's actually real easy providing where my "idle" is set is correct.
  • punkrockkiel
    Posts: 34
    Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:00 pm

    by punkrockkiel » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:32 pm

    just in case anyone comes across this and has the same issue "after a rebuild", pop start the bike if you cant get it to kick start.

    tore mine down and reoiled everything and put top end back together with correct decompression cam. took it to a friends house, rolled it down a hill and on second try, it started and ran.

    as for having the throttle open 3/32nd, that was way off cause that makes it idle at 6k.
    45 pilot is too big also, stick to the stock 42.

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